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At the end of the day, whether it's theft or not, the artists need to make money to survive. If their products don't sell - they won't keep making new content. Other people are effectively paying the artists so they can keep producing the content that pirates enjoy for free. If we were talking about water, that would be fine. But it's not.

You're right, most people don't buy the game after pirating it. This is because most pirates are so poor that buying a game is unthinkable. Or at least it was, before 4-for-a-dollar game bundles became a thing. Anyway, the topic at hand is the economic effect on IP holders. They obviously don't lose anything from the vast majority of pirates, who wouldn't have bought it anyway.

So what's left is figuring out whether the impact of those who would have bought it if piracy wasn't an option outweighs the impact of those who bought it only because they could pirate it first, combined with the publicity effects of ALL those who pirated, even the overwhelming majority who would never have bough it in any situation. And to say publicity only worked for a handful of games is very wrong.

Publicity doesn't mean massive hype. If someone pirates a game, can't afford to ever buy it, but enjoys it and raves about it on a forum somewhere, that's free publicity. Every time someone somewhere on the internet asks "Do you know of other games like X" or "Do you know any games that have X", the probability of getting your game recommended is directly proportional to how many people have played it.

It seems invisible, but it's there and it matters. The more players a game already has, the more likely it is to draw new players. Also, when considering people who pirate then buy, it's important to include the numerous children and teens who have no way to pay for games in the present, but will be able to buy their childhood favourites in the future. Just look at the success of GOG. My heart doesn't exactly go out to those people. Children, teens, people who cannot afford them.

There's a massive amount of legally free games, books, tv shows etc anyone who has a computer and an Internet connection can gain access to these days. Enough to last even a picky person several lifetimes. There also are things that I want and cannot afford. And we have all been children. I couldn't afford buying games and books when I was a teen, so I played a F2P mmorpg and took advantage of the Gutenberg Project.

I had fun, made friends, got a part-time job to have some spending money. That's life. While it's 'free publicity', its effect is in most cases very difficult to quantify the whole debacle about Let's Plays of That Dragon, Cancer is a clear example of this. It also doesn't excuse anything. Sometimes people almost make it sound like they're doing the developers a favor. But there are plenty of ways giveaways sites, youtube streamers, bloggers.. Well, money is finite.

They could also be buying new games. Or buying old classics they never got to play. I don't find that argument very compelling. It never is a compelling argument. It's a nonsense argument. It tries to make the moral issue about the ability to pay. The issue isn't the ability to pay. The issue is the right to compensation. I got into a similar argument with another user once and they compared pirating to stealing food to survive. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. It depends on the local legislation, here piracy is not considered theft by the law, so the matter may be a little more complex than it seems at a first glance.

As far as I'm aware piracy isn't theft anywhere. It would take quite some perversion of the law to make it theft. So it gets criminalized as copyright infringement, an accurate description. But this doesn't stop big companies from trying really hard to associate piracy with theft. And then we remember that they're the ones who labeled copyright infringement "piracy" in the first place, a propaganda move that epically backfired. Well, they create websites with categories like "Movies" "Music" "0-DaY WaReZ, LuLz" and the like, take no action to remove illegally-shared materials and expect to hide behind statements like "We don't condone piracy, wink wink ".

They very well may have but regardless, as doslover said, they made no real attempt to stop any sort of illegal action through their site. Look at G2A and tiny Build Games. If G2A hadn't of reformed I'm sure it would be a different story right now. I'm not saying he didn't facilitate illegal activities. I'm saying the laws that make pirating illegal are bullshit. And it's certainly not theft. You basically sad he did something bad and deserves to be punished, whereas from my point of view he did something wonderful and is being punished for it by the corrupt lackeys of faceless corporation that are strongly opposed to the interests of both the artists they exploit and the customers they serve.

It's not my confusion, it's yours. Nothing was stolen. The crime in question is failing to respect the IP holders' exclusive right to make copies. A right which I very firmly believe should be very limited and which I currently see as abhorrently exploited. The law is supposed to be about justice, and I don't see any justice here, only corporate interests.

No, I expect copyright to be reasonable. I see free distribution of digital software as an effective way to fight the currently very oppressive system of copyright. To properly make fair judgment, one has to forfeit bias. If you are inherently biased, you therefore can not make fair judgment. If you are admitting to bias you give up any right to a reasonable discussion.

I will not admit bias to this topic because I can certainly see where it can be helpful but neglecting that the distribution of a copyrighted piece of entertainment is essentially theft is to be obtuse. If someone had the cure for cancer hidden away, then someone needs to take it and make available to the world because it would do good for others.

If there is a new video game coming out, buy it. Cracking it and uploading it provides no real good to anyone and only harms those who worked so hard on the project. First, I'm not making judgements. I really wish I could, but I'm not in any position of power. I'm a passionate advocate for one of the sides. Second, this line: "If you are admitting to bias you give up any right to a reasonable discussion. Everyone is biased on pretty much every topic and every reasonable discussion ever was held by biased people.

The point of a reasonable discussion is to challenge people's biases and allow them to get a more accurate idea of what is being discussed. Nobody starts out perfectly informed and unbiased. Third, you're clearly biased. More than me, even.

To declare copyright infringement theft is quite a leap, and to call everyone who disagrees with you obtuse is Fourth, cracking and uploading games improves the lives of people who cannot afford to buy games. This here shows your wealth bias. You cannot comprehend that for the overwhelming majority of the people on the planet, "buy it" is not an option. Fifth, you claim that piracy harms those who worked so hard on the project, yet you fail to provide any evidence.

I've explained elsewhere in this thread why, in the absence of hard data, it's more logical to assume that piracy has a neutral to positive effect on content creators. If you can't be bothered to find my other comments, say so in your reply and I'll copy them in this comment chain for you. I wrote game reviews for a site for about 6 months, nothing spectacular.

It earned me a little side money until my real life got busy. When I played a game, even if I hated playing it, I had to give my unbiased opinion. Sometimes, I had to admit that even though I very much disliked a game, it was good.

Other times, I would have a blast, would have to admit its flaws and shortcomings. If you want to be honest with yourself and those you are talking to, you need to get past your own personal bias. You are right that nobody starts off perfectly informed, but you open your mind to the possibility that your idea is wrong, that is how you grow.

How does thinking that piracy is essentially theft a leap? How does that make me biased? I am not calling everyone that disagrees with my views obtuse, I am just saying that you are because you are failing to realize that what you do when you pirate software is steal. A pirate a person who robs and kills at sea. All forms of theft. I don't have wealth bias. I haven't purchased a game in about 3 months because we don't have money. The reason I don't have money is my own fault though.

I have a wedding coming up so we are setting aside a lot. I am 23, my fiance is We both dropped out of college. Neither of us have what I would consider to be a good job. Yet we own a 70, house, we both own cars worth over 10, We are in the lower percentile in terms of income and yet we can afford all of this and more. Friends with more money are envious of what we have. It's because we're not blowing money on other things. When all of our money wasn't going towards a wedding, I was buying a game pretty much every other week, or at least once a month.

Bundles allow you to get a lot of games for very cheap. Steam and GMG and others have sales constantly. Saying games are too expensive is a bit greedy in my opinion. But if the market feels that way as well, that price doesn't hold. Gaming has never been more inexpensive. Edit: My point of these last two paragraphs is that not being able to afford something is a really bad excuse for just stealing it. If you don't have money for the latest game Welcome to life. Just because you personally think that something is too expensive doesn't make it so.

You have no real right to dictate what price is justifiable. I don't have enough money to buy one right now but I deserve to have it so I should get it for free. He may have stolen, but he stole from the rich and that's not acceptable,right? Rich people are stealing from the poors evey single day and no one gives a fuck.. Corporations are stealing 10 times that ammount in a month, maybe a week from you guys and they are also murderers.

The law is made to punish poor stealing from the rich, not vice-versa. I'm quite aware there are a number of legal torrents, that's why I used it as the example of being similar to DVDs. The difference is, the site was a house for illegal torrents, just as a person on the street with a stand selling DVDs with illegally-copied movies on them is a house for stolen media.

You don't have to explain you're a pirate, if you're arguing for sharing property you have no rights to, it's fairly clear. It doesn't matter how much money a copyright owner does or doesn't lose. That has no bearing on this important fact:. Someone creates something. You acquire it for free not because they want you to acquire it for free, but because you can.

This is not a moral act. Trying to make it about the law and about corporate greed doesn't change that no one has the right to access someone else's stuff freely just because they can. And yes, I too pirate things. What's worse is that he tries to act if this is a righteous act he is performing. Like he is somehow showing the world that what he is doing is the way it should be done. Sheep, ha! The most pathetic argument in the world is the ones that act like they are high and mighty and call the ones who disagree sheep.

There has never been a point in human history that we didn't somehow pay for a good we wanted. Whether through trading, selling, or simply helping the other person work. However a pirate offers absolutely nothing in return. I mean, if you want to pirate just say you like pirating. Get rid of the hilariously transparent rationalizations. People pirate because of the absence of consequences. That's all. You are right, however there are still consequences.

That manufacturer of 4K TV's will not earn enough money to continue operating. The hard workers and those relying on that job will be will be unemployed, all the while the ones who stole the TV's only worry about themselves. People don't really care about consequences to the industry--so long as they get their free media, or in the example, their free TV--that's all they care about.

Luckily for pirates more than enough people pay for movies and music and many of us pay for television shows regardless of whether we pirate so we have a current situation that appears tenable. But we don't have to pretend it's some righteous fight about copyright law, or corporate greed. Copyright and patent law and pretty messed up, and corporate greed is disgusting, but these issues exist outside of digital goods, and sticking it to the man by downloading a movie isn't going to fix that.

I agree in that people don't care about the consequences of the industry, but that can be a problem. With piracy, the issue isn't as widespread and so you aren't noticing disastrous consequences. You are absolutely right in saying how messed up the whole process is. Digital goods are the norm, but our laws don't feel as though they are made properly for it.

If that was true, nobody would fund projects that may or may not deliver something years down the line. People care about what they're passionate about. You're basically trying to claim that there's some small heroic group of people who pay for everything and a larger group of disgusting immoral freeloaders. That's a false dichotomy.

Different people will pay for or refuse to pay for different things, for different reasons. You can't conflate the people who pirate because they really only care about getting their free media with the people who pirate because they can't afford it or with the people who pirate because they actually have principles. The latter are people who might pirate a game they love released by a big publisher, but if that same game was put on Kickstarter by them same devs, they'd fund it.

Yet you claim this is impossible, we're just using morality and principles as rationalizations. Being so dismissive of us principled lot is very insulting. I made the point that piracy is as widespread as it is precisely because there is a lack of consequences.

When I used stealing televisions as an example and Knapp16 responded that the industry itself may suffer, I responded that "[p]eople don't really care about consequences to the industry," yes. Did you not understand the nuance there? The people who are still torrenting games on PC even though games are dirt cheap do not care very much about devs getting their "fair share" and the people who loot electronics shops for free goods don't care if that store closes.

It's not a statement about all people everywhere--it's a generalization that requires the ability to interpret the message and not be overly-literal. I suppose that's my fault for not being clear enough. As for the other stuff you said, don't strawman. I never claimed or implied that there was a "small heroic group of people who pay for everything and a larger group of disgusting immoral freeloaders. Because I was pretty sure everyone out there understood that it is quite a large group of people who pay for media that allow the smaller group to acquire it freely--not the other way around.

That makes no sense economically. This particular conflict is not my fault for not being clear enough. It's your fault for not assuming that I understand basic economics. Your whole Kickstarter point misses the mark when I clarify things for you as I did in my first paragraph but let me address one thing:. There's no false dichotomy. I don't need to care why a person chooses not pay for the non-free media they acquire freely.

Neither does a copyright owner. It is not the responsibility of any consumer to decide that the media is too expensive and thus it is moral to just access it for free. That's nonsense. Can afford, can't afford, who cares? You can do without but you choose to acquire it freely.

You know what choice we can all make? Not to acquire it freely. To do without. And what's this nonsense about someone pirating a game released by a big publisher, but if the same devs put it on Kickstarter they'd fund it? I don't care. Do it if you're going to do it but don't say it's because so-and-so doesn't deserve money, try before you buy and all that. Before I went back to being a gamer a few years back, I spent much of the new century being a pirate. And I am still a pirate.

But I'm immune to the nonsense pirate arguments and I really don't pirate games, and I look for free alternatives to software instead of pirating. I still pirate TV, movies, and music, because--absolutely--those industries do need to adapt to the modern digital world stop charging so much in general, stop piggybacking television services into tiers, etc. I'm a dude who wants to be able to watch a movie without paying for it because I live in a world where I can.

It's common for Linux distros and other large files but I would probably concede that isn't the most popular use :D. Well it can be good to remind someone that a torrent isn't inherently illegal. It's just that it is abused and misused. But that has little relevance in a discussion about KAT and torrent tracker admins being sought by law enforcement.

Unless you want to argue that someone who has exclusively provided access to or indexes for legal torrents has faced prosecution. Torrenting is primarily for freely file-sharing non-free media. When you bring up legal torrents you are just attempting to obfuscate the issue. Edit: To be more clear no one you are having a discussion here is unaware that legal torrents exist. Bringing up legal torrents doesn't educate, it merely obfuscates.

Sure go to jail but a few years, maybe a decade at the most extreme, anything above is miscarriage of justice. I could agree with that, 30 years is quite the sentence. And that is the appropriate debate. I've been downloading copyrighted media freely for far too long to have my head that far up my ass but a lot of people are still parroting the same nonsense about how somehow they get to decide what is appropriate compensation--if any--rather than the copyright owner.

That's silly. I guess you advocate censorship, taking things away from poor people and companies releasing unfinished and expensive products. What an odd conclusion to draw. I also think 21 years isn't enough for murdering 77 people but again, unsure why you're telling me about how Norway punishes its murderers.

The entertainment industry need to understand who pirates are and why they torrent. They need to adapt to society instead of going head on. My second point was about the world we live in and what punishment should be given out by contrasting crimes. Alleged copyright infringement, not theft. Where I live you can't even get 30 years for murder unless it's premeditated. I'm starting to hope Trump wins the elections and the USA actually will go the isolation route.

Consider reconsidering your ideas of theft and justice, if you have some spare time. Keep loving DOS, though. Kill someone because of your stupidity, incompetence, negligence and you're out of prison in a little over 2 years. Run a website hosting links and you're spending anywhere from a third to a half of your life in prison. Consider this, a wannabe terrorist received a 3 and half year prison sentence for writing a bomb making manual.

This guy is getting a sentence nearly ten times that for having a website that allows people to post links. They hypocritically want digital products to be protected in the same way physical products are, yet they are unwilling to offer the same protection for those digital products that they are forced to for physical products. Instead of being sad that this person got quite the sentence, maybe the sad thing is that other crimes don't come with longer sentences?

USA is fucking retarded They are selling heroin from Afganistan why do you think they are there, to protect opium fields , funding terrorists Syria, Yemen, Iraq etc etc and so many other shits and they are more concered about a fucking torrent website.. They should be more concered about violent crimes don't you think?

Maybe the cartels and gangs? That's why i don't talk about these kind of things on gaming sites.. I got mad and i said it.. All i have to point out to you is, make your homework.. You are too naive, you seem to don't have any clue about what's happening in this world.. And to respond to you : Yes they do know who they're funding terrorists.. You can also listen to former US soldiers and their experiences in war zones.. I'd give you to see some videos of so called "moderate opossition" in Syria which USA is directly funding, but i'll get perma banned most likely..

Start reading. So yeah, that's just a matter of linguistics. But the heroin story of afganistan is just a conspiracy theory. There's a very clear reason as to why they got into afganistan, and it's not heroin. The reason they're still there is that they have no idea how to get out.

I know right? If you behead someone you're not a terrorist as long as you serve USA.. You just need to use the internet.. At least this is a good thing about the internet , you can not censor it.. This is my last reply, it's obvious who i'm talking with.. Start reading once again. You've seen wars and dead people where? In games? You may have seen some things, but maybe on TV and they're showing what they want you to see.. Nothing too graphic..

And let me tell you that i understand what's happening in middle east. If you want to understand too, you have to do is research.. I understand what's going on in the middle east: there are several groups of fucking crazy people going around killing everyone who doesn't agree with them especially the other groups of fucking crazy people.

On top of that, are a lot of foreign interests backing one group of crazies over the other group of crazies, in the hopes of furthering their own interests. You're right, but the main concern is.. Do people know what are these interests? Some people do, some people don't and some people really don't give a fuck as long as they have something to win or not..

Until we all will. I think you hit the nail on the head: some parties only care about winning let's not name names here. They did support terrorist groups, which goals were along with USA goals - destabilization situation in country, preventing certain country align with Sovien Union and so on. I'm gonna stick with what I said, the US doesn't intentionally fund terrorists in the middle east - it's just really bad at figuring out who is and who is not a terrorist.

They funded and trained what it would become Al Qaeda. Now they are doing the same for the "rebels" in Syria. They also had a hand in a lot of coups all around the world. Do not worry in France we sell weapons to everyone make war with the US, have some laws passing without vote requirement, officers without badges, and our biggest problem is attentat so the governement enter random house to check if you got something.

Your point is insipid. I'll ignore that it is full of dubious allegations. But just because there are crimes of higher priority that doesn't mean you should ignore crimes of lower priority. By your logic every police department with unsolved murders and unsolved rapes should stop investigating burglaries, assaults, and embezzlement because they should be dealing with the real crimes!

Assuming he has been charged, it is a common prosecution tactic t charge with everything they can at the beginning and then dropping charges later either when evidence is gathered or during a plea bargain. This gentleman has the funds to hire some good attorneys and put on a good defense. I'll use murder as an example. Murder in the 1st degree and Murder in the 2nd degree are a matter of intent.

So, you charge the person with both. If you're able to prove 1st degree, that's the conviction, but if the court determines that it's not quite 1st degree, then there will be a conviction on the 2nd degree charge. If the prosecution only went for 1st degree, failure to convince the court would mean an acquittal. I don't agree with illegal torrenting, but 30 years for facilitating downloads of 'Now You See Me 2' seems a bit harsh Although it appears he hasn't even been extradited yet, so maybe the title is a tiny bit misleading?

He most likely will be. That does not make one a slave country, it goes both ways. Let me tell you a story about something that happened in my country a slave one.. This is not a singular incident, it's just an example.. An american killed someone really known here and did not serve any time in jail for murder after he got back in USA..

That's really fair.. You can also check about US soldiers raping girls in Japan.. No time in jail also. If you mean the Okinawa rape incident, the soldiers spent 7 and 6,5 years in prison respectively, in Japan. The other one I can't even begin to make an educated guess on what you're referring to, as it's too vague. I can find sources talking about how the Taliban are basically back to where they were before the war, and using heroin to fund their rise. I can find blogs supporting you, but using those as a source, well I might as well trust Fox News to give me an unbiased opinion on violence in video games next After the talibans got the power in Afganistan they've destroyed almost every single opium field..

After everything changed.. After all, i'm not trying to convince you, belive whatever you want to belive. So it can take ages before someone will be transferred to USA. Unless out new "good" government will want to have "show" and will force our courts to give him away quickly. Trust me the puppets will do anything USA orders.. Most of the Europe is doing this on daily basis except for Russia and now Turkey.. Polanski's crimes pre-dates the current extradition treaty. According to Wikipedia, the treaty was signed in , and was put into power in This is not a nonsensical reason though.

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